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Article posted Jun 28 2007, 5:13 PM Source: ZeitgeistMovie.com Print

Zeitgeist




"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
- Gerald Massey



























Comments 1 - 20 of 26 Add Comment Page of 2 >
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 28 2007, 7:41 PM

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86196 Having reflected on this video, which could well be more useful to children than ten years at school (don't worry about adults, they learn from the kids and the kids learn faster), it leads me to a suggestion. Perhaps posters here can either tell me what a useless idea it is, or if possible refine it that it can work as intended (for the benefit of all).

As things have been made to go so terribly wrong, would it be viable to set up a new identity , one that links by membership rather than by territory (usurping the national identity system). If it is to have a law, that law should perhaps be:

1. There can be only this law.

Although mankind are just people, individuals, there is perhaps a way to express that as a collective, in terms of a new identity. If people were happy with this new identity, they can tear up their passports (supposedly the hijackers had passports).

The plan is for one world and one government, but I see no problem in two groups of people, but not the rulers and slaves intended. If the free world was built, who the hell would accept the new world order.
Anonymous

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 3:32 AM

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88198 Interesting proposal.
Having just watched the film myself, I realized that my views have been necessarily reinforced. I say necessarily because it isn't enough to see something like this once and then go on about your daily life not knowing what to do, so then sidelining the issue and forgetting because it doesn't affect your immediate survival whereas challenging this system would. That and not fully realizing the gravity of this situation we're all in.

Your proposal of non-territory based citizenship is kind-of already a reality. You can be an American in the USA and not use your US District of Columbia citizenship & SSN. There are people who try to do it: live within the territory but not bound-by-contract to the acceptance of the criminally-imposed citizenship of that territory. Such people are actually under a declaration of War that's not currently vigorously enforced, but legally this state of War exists and is all the reason they need to incarcerate/kill/dissappear you regardless of Law. As I said, it's not being vigorously enforced against the few who currently attempt to do this, but I believe one day it will be.

I've been dwelling and dwelling on this "End Game" material now for months and I can see no way out of the "checkmate" that is coming. As a human being (animals too!) we have no choice but to accept what is coming - that is, unless there's something I overlooked. And hopefully there is.

I believe that properly solving the Money Problem is the answer. Witness to how viciously entities such as e-gold.com have been shut down recently. Any monetary system that rises to challenge the Establishment monetary system is doomed to attack before it can get big enough to function sufficiently, thru govts and jurisdictions already controlled by the banksters. After the next world war I belive all govts will be monopolized and then there'll REALLY be no way out of the checkmate! Currently the only hope I still court occasionally is in alternative monetary systems. Alternate citizen (corporate status) systems would benefit only if they can be made secure enough against the military capacity of the Superstate.
Anonymous

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 3:44 AM

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88198 Everyone who knows of and/or understands this monstrous problem needs to be known amongst themselves and cooperate towards a solution. If that is possible without being infultrated and then rounded-up and put into a camp.

Can we even solve THIS problem?
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:01 AM

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86196 It has gone beyond the point of complaining being of sufficient worth, these problems must be solved. I have looked into a considerable range of territories, ones that would seem irrelevant, only to find all of them being subjected to laws and transfer of powers to the state, all of the them make it clear that the promised full spectrum war is on and has been going on for some time.

I looked at alternative money systems, and because it is such an important area of territory, it is the one of the most heavily defended. Back in 1996 Clinton enacted 'anti-terrorism laws targeted at 'material support', laws so vague and encompassing as the 'money laundering' it worked in tandem with. In the UK they have replayed the American mafia game, setting up SOCA, a secret police force (Serious Organised Crime Agency). Even if you take them to court, you have to use your passport under money laundering laws, the banking system has been turned into a massive spy network. E gold was destroyed using the most potent attack weapon, child pornography, as on that agenda the state created a demon offence where an accusation is all that is needed.

Also, I think it reasonable to suppose, in their race for power, the traditional monetary system may be scrapped, and on paper, American is already insolvent. In the UK, the economy only exists because the newspapers present a picture of prosperity.

Waking people up is vital, this site contributes to that, and the Internet must be defended by the public, free speech must be defended by using it and as we use it we spread the word.

I came here to learn, but also to meet like minded people who are here to solve the problems, the war on the people must end. They say you have to be in it to win it, as many people as possible must be woken up.

The Browns who are trapped in their home, are symbolic of all the public if only people knew it, and if they all knew it, the state has lost its most popular weapon, manufactured consent.
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:13 AM

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86196 As for religion, I think there is one more religion that should be dismantled, the religion of helplessness. People are programmed to think it isn't their problem, it most definitely is. People are programmed to think they are helpless; they most definitely are not. People are programmed to think people don't care, they do and passionately.

A few people can take over the world because people think these things, that is absurd. People must have faith in themselves. Just because you are thinking this is not right, someone somewhere is thinking the same and wanting to meet you.

These problems can be solved by mankind, they will have to be anyway, but the sooner the better.

Perhaps there is a way to deal with the banking system, simply if we put our heads together and see what we can do to help the browns.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

"The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within." - Mahatma Gandhi
Chris

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:26 AM

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I personally think the solution is an individual one.

"Ne te quaesiveris extra."
(“Do not seek outside yourself.” - “Look within.”)

When I look at the world, I ask myself, what is the problem?

Is it really the money system? Is it the absence of an organized collective?

I personally don't think so.

When I look out into the world and I look at the animal kingdom, how it is self-regulating and does not need a police force or a government or anything else to "keep it under control", I see how humans should live as well.

If you look at a puppy dog prancing around, and notice how free its movements are, then you look at a "normal" human and notice how rigid and awkward its movement are, it becomes obvious there is something seriously wrong with your "average" human being. If people are not even capable of free expression how will they be capable of living in true freedom?

If a switch was flipped tomorrow and everyone was free, most people wouldn't even know what to do with their freedom, they would fritter it away by pillaging and doing other nonsense which they think laws are set-up to keep them from doing.

In my opinion, what it all boils down to is not politics, or even psychology, but biology. People are essentially lifeless robots. They are completely disconnected from nature and their nature. They are essentially biologically dead. If there is to be any freedom in this world it will come from human beings waking up, getting in touch with their nature, and starting to BE HUMAN.
Chris

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:31 AM

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"As for religion, I think there is one more religion that should be dismantled, the religion of helplessness. People are programmed to think it isn't their problem, it most definitely is. People are programmed to think they are helpless; they most definitely are not. People are programmed to think people don't care, they do and passionately."

Words of wisdom...
friendstacy

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 6:55 AM

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"If you look at a puppy dog prancing around, and notice how free its movements are, then you look at a "normal" human and notice how rigid and awkward its movement are, it becomes obvious there is something seriously wrong with your "average" human being. If people are not even capable of free expression how will they be capable of living in true freedom? "

...and then, if you go to a homeschool group meeting, you will see children who are free like that puppy and who are actually happy!! (I certainly was not a happy child.) There is hope, as long as there exist children whose spirits have not been squashed by control and abuse, children who understand how to trust and believe in themselves.

The answer lies inside us, each of us, individually. We don't need to band together to fight some unseen enemy. Other people are not the enemy! The problem is that people have been taught to be too afraid to trust their instincts. We each have the answer within. So my answer might not be the same as yours, does that make it any less valid? No. Find *your* answer. Create the change you want to see happen in the world. The only thing preventing that from happening is a lack of belief in the power we each possess.

The economic system, same as all other artificial man-made constructs, will tumble down regardless of what we do to try to save it or change it into something less terrible.
Anonymous

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 4:35 PM

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88198 Sorry but all the positive thinking in the world is not gonna change this without action. And that action should clearly be focused on the monetary system. Individuals who know enough to escape this won't be able to keep themselves and their families free forever. Sooner or later this problem will be EVERYONE's so you cannot just worry about saving yourself.

I feel the day coming where my spirit is about to be broken and I see that day coming fast with what's going on around us without a solution.

We need to put together a network of willing and able people somehow without immediate threat of being discovered by authority, and we need to evolve/design a NEW monetary system, with enough of a network of people who use it to satisfy most/all of life's *necessities*. Internet gold currencies such as Pecunix are a good place to start and will work great for now, but it cannot last forever because as long as there's a physical territory for the gold to exist in and be audited, it can be undermined by force eventually.
Perhaps an internet web-of-trust type system should eventually replace it.
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:14 PM

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86196 >If a switch was flipped tomorrow and everyone was free, most people wouldn't even know what to do with their freedom, they would fritter it away by pillaging and doing other nonsense which they think laws are set-up to keep them from doing.

That may well be true, but who has the right to decide that someone else's freedom is taken? If you are wiser than me, does that mean you have the right to think for me and decide for me? Who is to decide you know better? Very often for me the most educational move I make is a mistake.

Keeping people prisoner is a self-fulfilling prophecy, they become institutionalised , dependent, so it would hardly be a suprise if freedom was squandered. Building dependence destroys independence, destroys thought, destroys participation, and is the very ideology at least partly responsible for putting mankind itself in jeopardy.

If people are free, make their own choices as individuals, only in that fashion can mankind endure. I choose to exchange thoughts here, that is voluntary, I want exposure to the collective wisdom, there are many issues I struggle with.

When watching that film, I think of George Bush as the spokesman for a travel agency. He is making arrangements for people to travel on high speed trains where the destination is hell. I see that if people are waking up and watching, it will cut the number of trains that leave and the speed at which they can travel, that mankind has more time to consider its destiny.

I am here as witness. For all the blind spots I have and don't know about, I know nations are being destroyed, people are being tortured, the future is being stolen and part of our measure is what we hand on to the next generation. If I just witness these horrific events, to just sit here and do nothing is to be complicit in the killing. If you saw a someone about to walk out in front of a car, isn't it right to do something so that doesn't happen?

That is a dilemma for me, because it means I wish to excercise my will, my will being that the killing stops, fascism is reversed into what each person wants. Mankind has many special gifts and for sure is smart enough to get out of this mess if only people had the freedom to choose. At least if people know, they have a chance of a choice.
phosphorescent

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 5:14 PM

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"When you cut down the last tree, when you poison the last river, you should know you cannot eat money."

Wealth is not gold, material goods or any of the other crap pushed on people. I believe wealth to be good friends, maybe your family (tho not everyone is born into their family), and a full belly.

I refuse to work a full time job, because even with the $$$ I feel I am being robbed of my most precious resource. Time. Things are not always easy, but when are they ever? I would much rather have a good friend, and a couple books. Everything else is distraction or diversion.
Chris

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 7:04 PM

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Make no mistake, if a switch existed that would free everyone I would press it in a second. Yes people would go wild, but can you blame them? After being tied down for so long people need to be "unleased".

I was making a similar point to yours about the train to hell. Freedom is basically a choice, people must choose to be free, they cannot be forced to be free. Hence the reason not everyone could handle freedom, it would essentially be forced onto them like everything else and that wouldn't really help them.
bolly

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 9:26 PM

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I would like to see the issues of mens' movement very firmly weeded to truth news films such as this. I admire the way spirit and god was brought into focus in this film, and note that family division is again mentioned here, as in similar films. It needs exposition. I assure you it is nothing like femminism or a reaction to losing power: the thought in those circles is well-aligned to the corruption of truth, and to truth, and is very refreshing, though the background of family disruption disturbing.

Here is an article and a source of powerful informative reading. I urge the authors of the film to take note, and would offer any assistance they wish.

http://www.callintobeing.net/index.php/uk-men-s-movement-to-safety-and-justice.html
http://www.ukmm.org.uk/

the one world idea as a benign solution to slavery in a nominal one world government is i think wishful thinking, because we are open to exploitation by elitists and government. In fact it is and always had been one world. But we need territorial -based homes and communities, and their protection and government by co-operation, this had always been the case, for raising children, exchanging produce and maintaining a garden. Known and respected Elders and their successors get together in communities, bonded by affection too.. Respected for speaking truth. Known, and in knowing, knowing ourselves too: spiritual leaders. I do not mean isms of religion, though codes emerge as disciplines, like washing in the morning, and ceremonies indicating rites of passage, and religious lore. You cannot keep your spiritual life secret, and then say we are one.

Communities inter-relate too: right through to marginal mountain communities with the city. They guarantee each other assistance in conflicts, to resolve them, or to put down wicked control, greedy wars etc..
All this means communities centred in knowledge of who we are, our relationship to god, or our spirit soul in relaiton to the whole SOMETHNG whch is also spirit soul, though bigger than we are. When I say god, i feel as if i may stir up sentiment of indignation. That's so sad, when god is a mystery to our conceptual mind, and signifies to our intelligent ancestors truth and reality, our common being, and origin. Not, say like the atheist/psuedo scientific something comes from nothing kind of idea. I mean to say the world we see with material eyes is manifest of spirit which is truth and reality, and is easy for the un-educated to grasp.

Leaders and community, to work have to be based in sure spiritual knowledge of who we are. Children and un-educated people have no problem with the idea of soul: it is natural intuitive. That is one good reason for the cross-cultural emergence of God consciousness. We can know truth beyond what we can see with our eyes or are told, or read the signs of nature.
Prabhupada, of ISKON (hare krishna) says true religion means knowing our relationship to God , or getting back to godhead, nothing more, not isms, like christianity, or hinduism. A science, true knowledge, conferring the ability to understand nature, this world, each other, ourselves. I am increasingly drawn to his teachings and practise.

Government Scientists, once they grow out of their shorts and fondness of explosions, like to interpret reality and spirit on our behalf, in order to grow as individuals..their work is dulling them, they want humanistic glory afforded philosophers of old. Materialistic Sciences are in fact descriptive technologies, based in ancient discoveries. Now divorced from spirit, they have no embracing cogent causal theory, but are disparate theories that are based in words that rest on hidden assumptions, but not clear statements, and the visible or materially tangible (meters, effects and measurement). They are limited to each domain, and each has to be revised with each new discovery that breaks the theory, or as key words become meaningless through re-interpretation. They don't even guide research usually, to my mind, because the theory rarely guides the hypothesis, whereas statistical assumptions and political bias do, and interpretations are based in words that are philosophically ill-defined, prone to political correctness.
Yet, materialistic scientists mislead the public and serve the government in straying pompously into causal theories to denounce god (something comes from nothing).. or from soup!..and bangs which are heard without ears (or hearing)! Then there are the spiritual physicists who's feelings aren't reduced to brain events, who in order to escape a barren world and approach his children, embraces the oneness of gaiya..a kind of virtual wholeness, where the sum of the parts is greater than the the parts..but not real, not a being: We exist, but it doesn't, like a virtual governor in the electricity grid, one goes down, the others works harder to produce a stasis. To admit We and a greater being is gong to too far down the road of simplicity and god, instead We as individuals are all god, but god doesn't exist. God is a by-product we create accidentally, or exists naturally (Nature is god), meaning the workings are god, but no worker. Workings work by themselves, which incidentally are mechanical principles, not intelligent, or selves. Manifestations are of the principle we call energy. Proof: matter is convertible to energy? actually not. Energy has never been isolated, and exists as material states (activated/heated copper, lightening, cell metabolites).
So there is no god, no reliable feeling after all, other than i feel i depend upon the regard of my wife and employer and children, and i love to feel anything, rather than think all day about materials.
Confused? yes that's right then you've understood well. These are our leaders in thought, leading us n circles of stupidity because they can put a motor in dustpan and brush and then get you to work out on a motorized dust pan and brush exercise machine. True rigorous spiritual philosophers are ignored. In fact there are few courses or phds in that area.

I see aetheism, and self-as-equal to god (competing with god), as a big problem, fed by 'secular' society.

I think the soloution lies in small communities banding together with their own leaders, planning permission, local produce, simple living, and that can only come with the persuit of something more than materialistic and selfish (body-identity type goals). Almost anarchy, but not chaos. Almost communism, but not totalitarianism. Almost democracy but not centralised government.
Chiefs and Kings: position maketh the man, rather than political self-service. Councils of elders, and not voice of the youth - an instrument of corrupt state education, political correctness, and other foul corruption of language as the vehicle of intelligent communication. Wars where small armies of men give their life fighting warriors in combat with an end in sight, even a resignation. Not laying carpets of bombs for medals, complaining if they are shot at, and justifying mutilation of those they are meant to protect for the sake of THEIR control of your voice (democracy). Duals, if necessary, not gang warfare. Progress is the ruling myth (lie). Transcendance in this world is forgotten along with god.
Centralised government is a big problem, as is the notion of democracy and central government. Democracy lies in local, geographic community power.

Proper cultivation of natural resources lies in this same area, take local crops and conditions, organic, mixed farms and local microclimates. So does decent craftwork with local products. Building of healthy homes fit to pass on (without mortgages). Or plain mud huts..very nice, great for arguing couples..just build a hut next door, live like king and queen, no need to simulate a fight for children, where men must lose and go back to slavery without children, children without fathers.

Communities exist and come into existence and serve as examples, but think it gets harder. I think its important to try to serve as an example. ..and risk losing all. we're at that stage. In the past losing all did not mean destitution. You could pick up easily. Generally, communities need to be independent of existing systems of mortgages and dependency upon factory and corporate jobs. The vogue for downsizing once you have a bit of capital is not sufficient. Many people are jaded by that age, if 'successful' , and merely continue as consumers, enslaving others in their service to pamper bored lives and take pride in that ,plus enjoy a bit of Reiki, a movement of prana now and again at my friends house. Spirituallly heal 'my allergies' (another controlling myth..they are environmental poisons, or mouldy food)

Great minds get together to produce a film like this zeitgeist, brave hearts. But most people need to gain spiritual knowledge, and need conducive conditions and human inspiration along the way.

Yes I think it is important for children to see this film , several times as they grow up. Age five would be a good age to start: my children are already being sucked into mindless and poor education without critical thinking at this age.

Actually, I see little hope for change in a positive direction without an end to the rise of aetheism (her ein Britain for example) in state controlled organs (half of employment) and corporations. Lip service is corrupt from hypocrites, and though older people turn towards truth, that is no good for society as a whole, if it is not in the fabric.

One particular area which needs fighting and has potential as a precursor to good change, is a fight on the doorstep of fathers :men needed to fight for what they have lost: children as their 'own': this is also a fight against division of family. A fight against false histry and demonisation of men. A fight against selfishness induced by government in women. It is the duty of every man to look into this before marriage or children even. In fact I would say it is for men to make the last stand, and I am in no way sexist here. If we could re-assert natural spirit of fatherhood, and its wonderful qualities and spiritual power, backed up with honest intellectual thought, there lies the path to freedom for society. It is here that we are obliged to fight first for all poeple, and future generations.

Best wishes.
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 9:56 PM

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86196 I think that film has done a great deal to give people choice, it helped me, it tells much about how that train started its journey, picked up speed and where it is heading. It will have given people a switch of their own, people may now feel less inclined to climb aboard the express train to hell, and if they don't, they will be starting to think where they would like to go. Armed with the truth, they have a real choice.

For all our faults as humans, we have such special gifts, unconditional love, tears, laughter. We are born to self program, is it not a child that always asks why? How did we lose that? These gifts are things to share, not to inflict on others, and compared to these gifts, all that is happening now is as miserable as it is insane.

Splashed across the corporate media yesterday was a car in London, we are led to believe a car full of anger ready to explode. I think a feeble attempt to find more passengers, come and get as 'much fear and hate as you want', for sure the corporate governments have plenty in stock. They wouldn't be advertising so heavily unless people were already deciding they had some other place they would rather be.
bolly

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 10:53 PM

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It is always possible to solve the problem, but there is the correct place to start or to switch tactics...where just cause exists. The chances see dim now, they are. But what is unpredictable is the outcome. Along the way changes in chances (looking ahead at the odds), or now (looking at the status quo) of success change. You have to be prepared to die for truth: fact.
Look what has happened in the chances of truth news investigations being received by the main press: they have been forced to.

Chris, I don't think you have looked at animals. They fight, eat, mate sleep. And shit. If you are an animal. why try to learn from them? I don't see Kangaroo's learning from Tigers. And which one...all of them? And what makes us human then if we should be so? You failed to say. They haven't transcended Material bodily existence, if that's all you want then fine, be a biological entity, in a chiken farm perhaps, a human one.
Animals have souls. They do not rationalise and do not seek spiritual goals. But they have souls. ( a soul is the thing that is alive, animates a body). Spiritual life is what makes humans uniquley different, nothing else. You say look within, but then say look without at the animal world, You say there's nothing wrong, but then indicate a human is crippled in posture I agree: they cower like slaves. But, children are like puppies, do'nt you know that, haven't you played with children, or are you frightened of being called a peadophile? Because you will be suspected if you do. So it is our ubringing that is crippling us, and its not our powerless fathers, but the state, the education, the slavery and the delusion. Chris, this world is temporary, but it is a real temporary, a real illusion while it exists. God is within and without. Why ignore one, for the other? The only reason to look soley within is because you cannot live transcendentally in this world. What are your personal inner resources, if you did not choose to be born or when to die...a dumb mortal animal living out your meritorious karma? Did you create this world of appearances and birth and death? Are you oblivious to those questions like an animal? But if there is spirit and god, and we can enquire as to who we are, then this world is transcendental. If there isn't spirit and god then don't bother looking within, We are souless animals, so don't bother looking at tigers and trying to copy them..they will eat you alive. That's their nature, and you will learn your lesson. If you go further and speak with a tiger, you will find they suffer...boredom and frustration mostly. Then try speaking to a dog. Nature is not merely the animal realm. It is also the wind, which kills and whispers and caresses and displays signs its workings. Signs point to something else..the meaning beyond..this world..transcendental are Nature's signs.
Chris you sound like you have been influenced by Buddhism. Their goal is emptiness, Nirvana (peace), Mukta, individual Liberation (though not for all Mahayanists) Brahmaloka, (from where they will eventually be re-born, when merit is exhausted). Nothing comes from Nothing. Emptiness is only one quality. It is not all powerful, creative, knowing, a person, truth or god. Buddha was an incarnation of Krishna ( check the Baghvad Gita written before his birth), who cam e to lead people out of atheism by deception It's happening in the West. But what is needed by tis world is people who can die for other people, not blame them, but fight oppression. You saw he film here, doesn't it strike you as wicked?


I love the comment by the guy who refuses to wok for money. We should encourage that attitude, revising attitudes to subsistance living, and labelling such as poverty ( especially in the so-called third world). Rural poverty is richer than our lives where culture exists, yet materially poorer than it was, because of maginalisation by city economies: they dictate prices now. I myself will not work for an employer unless it is a small family business, producing it's own something, I will not play music or produce art except for free. I have children, and must provide. I make some things, I am poor. I may get a bit more money, but this kind of business odes not get easier..still I will persist. Poor is good, Less fear with the last £ spent, less fear of death, less fear of no success, greater clarity, less corruption. Planing permission an/ or pitching tents are problems for me, and I guess for everyone, though it may not be their present conscious aspiration..if permissible huts and tents would make for freedom and healthy living.

Of course there has to be a monetary solution, that would go go long with community-led government. but as you say here , it is doomed to destruction, as a solution it has to follow. Isalmic people should be embraced and encouraged to speak with us about interest and money, and forget all the jibes about terrorism or fundamentalism, we can speak about that issue on its own, they do in the Islamic world. Such presentations and dialogues would break down the terror/fundementalism stereotype a little, and further undermine faith in the media and their leaders work. For a culture to embrace such thought as a whole, deserves massive attention, and should not be clouded by religious sentiment either way: it is a credit to their religion, right? It demonstrates high purpose, yeah? (I remember i first got onto Bankers' war issues by a leaflet in 1994 or thereabouts produced by an ex-buddhist (tibetan sect) who turned to sufism. He was a Scot trained originally at a prestigious economic institute. He knew his stuff. A great man).

The one advance fight i can see, other than we all turn to god-consciousness at once, is in the just cause of fathers. That struggle exists with just a few together, and sufferers are many alone.

Would you care to compare a better place needed for action wedded to truth news, (given that truth news is of interest to many).

I agree to sit there and do nothing is to be complicit, if we have this awareness of the state of things: I say that even as a transcendentalist who believes wars are initiated by god, but nontheless we must do our duty and fight for truth, or in this day and age even act as conscientious objector. What they call wars these days are acts of aggression. There is no Iraq war, there is an illegal invasion, a resistance, and internal division. War is a fight fort truth and justice. It is here too. War usually means resistance, not invasion. The 'Taliban' or Aghan Lords had a war with Russia after it's invasion (sadly it invaded Kabul in order to stamp out CIA-led coup attempts), not I believe for territory, but I may be wrong. They should have left much sooner rather than try to stabilise the Kabul government, then the Lords would have had an easy victory...Like the Ottmans let regional princes fight ot the death for a clear successor, they should have let the lords fight themselves once they reached Kabul. But doesn't fit in with modern thinking does it? We say that is barbaric.

I have the impression that war now is reserved for two roughly equally armed forces with massive entrenched industrial scale bloody conflict, or else an invasion led with American support.
I prefer fight for justice for war: the rest is merely the opening scene, bloody aggression.

bolly

Posted: Jun 29 2007, 10:57 PM

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I think so David Stanley. The Brown Era. Kicked out of Scotland, due for re-election, or not. Everyone living abroad saying how awful it is at home...Start as you mean to go...
Chris

Posted: Jun 30 2007, 12:44 AM

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There are many animals in this world, why judge them as all one entity?

"They fight, eat, mate sleep. And shit."

When I look at an animal I see creatures which are completely sentient, self-aware, and quite intelligent. Yes humans are different, but that does not mean we are not also similar. Our differences do not make us superior and them inferior. In my opinion, your take on animals (which the vast majority of people hold) is psychological projection.

When I say we should be in touch with nature I mean HUMAN NATURE. Yes lions may kill other animals, but do deer? Every animal has its own nature, humans included. It is this human nature, which you can see most clearly in children, which, in my opinion, is what is behind the entire drive for freedom and liberation, psychically and spiritually. When you get in touch with your nature, the desire for spiritual enlightenment, psychical improvement, etc., diminishes to the point of nonexistence. That, to me, is what I would call Nirvana.

Yes, I am heavily influenced by Buddhism, but I am not a Buddhist any more than I am a book I read.

I am not advocating looking only within, the outside world is obviously a reflection of the inside world and vice versa. If anything I am creating a sort of counter-balance to the world which says essentially the problem is mechanical and spiritual, I am saying no it's biological. Yes all three could be considered a part, because everything is after all interconnected, but I think the biological aspect of our current plight is completely ignored when it is really at the core.
friendstacy

Posted: Jun 30 2007, 8:02 AM

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I do believe the biggest problem in our world is that people are afraid to look within to find their Nature (if that's what you wanna call it, fine with me). As children, we were trained and our spirits broken, much like horses of yesterday. Strangely enough, people don't treat horses as bad as they do human children anymore....

"When you get in touch with your nature, the desire for spiritual enlightenment, psychical improvement, etc., diminishes to the point of nonexistence"
Perhaps for you, this is true. I have found the exact opposite to be the case for myself. That's what the world needs, though, is for each person to find their own answers, rather than having someone else force their answers upon us.
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 30 2007, 10:44 AM

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86196 > As children, we were trained and our spirits broken, much like horses of yesterday.

Although I agree I attach limitation as I suspect many here have had their spirits tempered but not broken, or have compromised at times as a conscious choice that they were always willing to withdraw. An example would be if I travel, I would use my passport as a convenience rather than as respecting that these papers are what enshrines my right to travel. I would if I considered it appropriate, withdraw that consent and travel without one.

I post in part because I think we must not only find ourselves, but we must see ourselves in the context of the wider world. Whilst we consider here, plans have been made and the plotting continues. Mr Bush has at his disposal destructive machinery like no US president in history. It is awesome and much of it invisible. He is I would suggest insane, partly evidenced by the fact that he has unleashed that machinery with hostile intent and as a matter of planned policy.

Whilst we think and discuss here, the US, UK and allies are torturing and murdering people, invading and occupying their nations. I can imagine people in Iraq wondering, when they know there are people who know what is happening, why no one coming to their aid? Are they wondering if we are the savages our weapons demonstrate we are? I suggest we are hybrids, in part we are savages, in part we are not, and most importantly we have the choice.

I was analysing the media in relation to the 'bomb' incident in London, something that whatever it was is a consequence of US and UK policy, and different media channels had clearly been fed different information. Disinformation of this nature is what military agencies do, it shows the war is on at home, and the war is against the people, where possible using the public minds as weapons against themselves. In breaking the spirit that friendstacy referred to, it is quite some weapon when you can use the minds of the people you target, and that is well practiced and routine, though over reliance on that stategy is starting to weaken its grip.

I watched the video in this thread several times, I hope to again. Perhaps I have come to understand more of what the term 'human race' means, there is a race as what is now happening has been planned for some time, they have had quite a head start on so many of us.

I remember a saying from when I was a kid, it was that wisdom is the one thing you don't have until just after you need it. I think one of the challenges we now face is to prove that saying wrong.
David Stanley

Posted: Jun 30 2007, 10:53 AM

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86196 In response to Brolly over Mr. Brown, I was expecting the events in London or similar to unfold. I expected Mr. Brown to be tested from the outset, if he had not been on message, the Americans would have fired him as they did with Jack Straw. Sadly for mankind, Mr. Brown passed the test.
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