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Analysis posted May 20 2010, 11:40 PM Category: Commentary Source: InformationLiberation Print

Why the Obsession with Capitalism?!

Chris | InformationLiberation

I've been exposed to the works of Lew Rockwell and the Mises Institute for years now, I would always read Lew's site and enjoy it but I had no fundamental understanding of real economics. I thought like most people 'Hey what about the evils of corporations?! Why is the government the only evil, they're run by big business!'

This is of course true, but it is a slight of hand.

The government has a power monopoly on force. The 'state', as they say, is the ultimate settler of all disputes and the final arbiter in all situations. The state is the only organization with the power to jail you if you do not comply with its orders, if you do not pay it it's cut in every single transaction, or if you do not hand over +%30 of your income to it for its protection racket.

The state will soon be forcing you to buy health insurance from a private company at the barrel of a gun. It's true the health insurance companies wrote the legislation, so aren't they the evil ones? Sure they're evil, but who is going to jail you if you resist? Who has the power to enforce their ridiculous edict? Of course it's the state, the state is the source of all evil.

In a private market the companies would have no power over you, no one could force you to do anything, all corporations could do to get you to buy their products is make them better and cheaper and hope you're willing to voluntarily hand over your money to them because you feel your money is worth less than their product. That's their only power. That is how things should be, the corporations in a free market serve their customer's needs and give them whatever they want.

"But what about all the useless crap!" you say? "What about the garbage food full of poisons!?"

Those things are all voluntary. How many people think eating at McDonalds is good for their health? Probably no one, they don't care, they want the crap food and that's their right to have it. The beauty of the capitalist system is that everything is in massive abundance, every need and desire is satisfied ten fold. As Mises said, yes the masses consume lots of crap but that's because in the capitalist system everything is in abundance. In the socialist system there is nothing for anyone.

"For example, is it true that markets dumb down the culture, exalting trashy novels and movies over higher-brow fare? Mises points out that the tastes of the masses will always and everywhere be lower than those educated and cultivated to love higher culture. But, he says, the glory of capitalism is that it brings to every sector what it wants and needs, and more of it than any other system. So, yes, there will be more trash, but also more great work as well. It is a matter of availability: under socialism, nothing is available. Under capitalism, choice seems nearly infinite." - Source

Capitalism is freedom. Capitalism is the free market. Capitalism is the greatest thing to happen to mankind in the thousands or millions of years of our existence. Without capitalism the majority of people on this planet would not exist. There would be mass starvation and everyone would be working like hell just to survive. Bad crop yield one year due to mass freezing? Well, too bad, you're dead. No more trading for goods, no more 'crap' in massive abundance. Nothing.

That is not a free society. That is going back to the stone age. That is what the elite want to bring back through their carbon dictatorship. They too hate 'civilization,' they too want to bring an end to 'money,' 'exploitation' and 'capitalism.' They too despise the abundance of 'crap' and hate the 'free market capitalists' who don't think the world should stop growing and humans should stop breeding.

I don't agree, and I have no shame in saying it proudly. Free market capitalism is the greatest thing to ever happen in the history of the world. Going back to the stone age won't free us from anything. Going forward into a future of free markets and abundance will. That is why our economic progress is the number one enemy of the state. That is why the globalists view overpopulation as the world's biggest threat. They know if we can spread free market capitalism throughout the world their system of exploitation and systematic theft through central banking and statism will be gone forever.

We are at an incredibly important crossroads in the history of humanity. The central banking cartel has been printing so much money to fund their warfare/welfare empire that we are on the brink of hyperinflation and the collapse of our currency. This will make trade extremely difficult and will bring our economy to a screeching halt. People will be likely to believe all manners of nonsense about how 'capitalism is to blame.' Fractional Reserve banking is the opposite of free market capitalism, printing of money creates absolutely no wealth, it only serves to destroy the free economy by misallocating resources which could be used for productive means into the coffers of the government and their cronies. It serves to systematically and yet secretly steal the savings of everyone who holds their wealth in dollars, every dollar they print and spend devalues real capitalist's savings and ensures another major crash will occur once the market finally adjusts.

It is absolutely imperative that people wake up to the fact we do not have a free market capitalist system as things are now, we have crony capitalism, statism, and a private bank and government which is holding the free market hostage. When the system collapses we need to embrace free market capitalism and commodity based currencies instead of bashing capitalism and going under a socialist world empire where the government runs and controls everything.
_____
Chris runs the website InformationLiberation.com, you can contact him here.





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Comments 1 - 20 of 31 Add Comment Page of 2 >
TimAng

Posted: May 21 2010, 2:40 AM

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it doesn't get any clearer or truer than this
freedom_man

Posted: May 21 2010, 3:15 AM

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Hi, Chris. i feel that at least partly this article was necessitated by my rant.

What i tried to point out is that, whilst government forcing people to buy products of any sort of corporation is obviously a violation of freedom, and shouldn't be tolerated in a society that endorses freedom, that is only a very small part of the problem we have today. And to be honest, my government hasn't yet ever forced me to buy anything, and yet i've always known capitalism is always inherently evil - by it's artificiality and distortion of natural way of life.

First of all, capitalism by necessity ends up in a dictatorship. This is difficult to explain, but in the end it can not do otherwise, because in capitalism money is the symbol of success - money becomes the symbol and means for attaining a higher social rank. That is to say, those who have amassed a lot of wealth, obviously will be seen as benefactors (well, surely they have served the people well because people have so much endorsed their products?) and most succesful, thus promoting emulation.

One of the first things that will happen is unscrupulous people beginning to manipulate, with the use of science, people to buy their products for monetary gain only. You think this is not a problem? It is, because for this purpose mind-control and social engineering will be developed - by necessity. This alone destroys lives of the people making them neurotic and destroying their balance. It is just as much a problem even without a government, because when the companies are not controlled by the government, they will be all the more unscrupulous in manipulating and destroying the people. "Forcing" to buy products can be done in many ways, it does not need to be done at gun-point. If you think subliminals are not "forcing", you are entirely mistaken. If you think people are not FORCED to work to gain money in an economic system, you are mistaken. i don't know a single person who would work if they didn't need money - not a single one! And that is not an exaggeration. If people hadn't been sold the idea of comfort and ease, which have turned them lazy and soft and thoughtless, and also neurotic and perverted, they would not need the "goods" capitalism provides to them.

This is what i tried to point out in my rant, that an economic system was first created as a tool of control. If you think you can take something that they've given us thousands of years ago, and that it will not be abused the same way as it was at first, you are mistaken. There will always be ruthless psychopathic people (and i'm not saying capitalism would be a good idea even if we could somehow eliminate them from the game) who will go beyond making money (which i already tried to explain some the obvious evils of) - they will gain power by use and study of sciences. You see, that's how it happened thousands, or even more, years ago.

As for things that capitalism provides us with, which are supposed to add to our life-experience. Take cellphones. i won't even go to the radiation, i don't need to, and i'm sure it would be possible to create such devices without ill effects to physical health.
The point is, are we supposed to be at any given time in touch with other people? Is life supposed to be organized so that there is no chance of us not being able to reach someone the minute we want it? Or does it promote something unwanted in the spirit of man to need a cellphone? Why do we have this need? How does it exacly make our life "better"? Or does it only make our life "better" if we have decided that an artificial way with it's so-called convenience is "better" than what's natural? That you talk to people when you can, if you go to the woods or whatnot, then you are alone. What's wrong with that? i am absolutely convinced that it distorts the spirit of man to need a cellphone. It certainly distances him from his natural place - and through that, from his natural goals, aspirations and purpose. Cellphones don't enhance anything in reality. It's not better than not to be able to call someone when you have gone somewhere where you'd normally be alone. At best it's simply different, but at worst it's an abomination. At any rate, it should not be needed. To need it, promotes weakness. This is just one small example of how we have been lead to think science improves our lives, but when one takes a very simple look at the thing, it's clear there's no improvement. If anyone can tell me one thing how cellphones have improved something, i'd be very much obliged to hear it.
They promote weakness of character, they promote impatience, they promote lack of individualism, they promote lack of thought, they promote lack of real contact...etc.
Has it ever occurred to any advocates of science and capitalism that there might be a purpose to life, and purpose to all the trials in life, purpose to all the "ills" science so much wants to fix? Capitalism and science are great if you can see no other reason for life but pleasant existence, but if you can't stand existence as it's given to you, what kind of a being are you, exactly? But isn't it also possible life has higher goals? And my point is that it is exactly with those higher goals of life, the personal journey of an individual with his own character, that scientific inventions which make things "easier" and "more convenient" (instead of "BETTER") that capitalism and science so destructivelly interfere with.

Moving on to another point. You say that without capitalism this mass of people on the planet would not exist. Khrm, first i want to make it clear that i don't think there are "too many" people, that's a red herring, that doesn't enter into this equation at all. But if there were less peopple, would you "miss" the ones who didn't exist? It's the same thing with, say, computers. You can say that without capitalism we wouldn't have computers, but in reality, without capitalism you wouldn't need a computer. What would be the problem with less people?

It is not a deficiency that we are not naturally supplied with long-distance communication. It is a fact of life. A sentient person understands that and accepts it, and then goes on with his life taking responsibility for his actions. If you go somewhere, it's possible you might need help - if unsure, don't go - if something happens, accept the responsibility - those are the natural options. We should not rely on gimmicks from science to let go of our responsibility. It's not a deficiency on part of nature that we weren't supplied with televisions or computers. To need them means that one can not cope with life as is, it means being deviant. Science does not provide anything we need. It only provides us with things that distances us from reality and life.

This has nothing to do with the fact that most people "like" what science gives them. People have been indoctrinated away from reality and life, that's true. Because the deviants run this system for their own purposes, which is to perfect that which was (in their opinion) left imperfect. Deviants can only create a deviant system. Most people have become deviants so much so today that they have lost all touch with their natural selves - but mostly they lack integrity and sincerity, and desire for truth. They won't accept truth because they have been brought up to be weak and indoctrinated into a system. And they are so silly, that since they have a conscience which the psychopaths running the show don't have, that this system could actually be to their benefit "if only it were run on fair standards." Nothing is further from the truth.

Also, i really don't think people would be working like slaves to survive without "science" and "progress" - you only need to take a look at how arrested civilizations live, the few tribes that still exist outside the system. You know, long ago i read Tolstoi saying that in his estimation people would only need to work 3-4 hours a day to ensure survival, and that's funnily enough exactly how long it takes for the naturally living tribes to take care of their daily needs. The rest of the time is used in whatever they want to do (which doesn't include being bored or playing computer games or killing others of the tribe or filling their bodies with capitalistic junk) - talking, having sex, enjoying nature, thinking, just having a good time.

What it comes to natural dangers such as bad crops, well, there are two ways to go in this world, in the Garden of Eden, if you will. You can either accept what was given to us and try to figure out life as it was meant to be, or you can be a deviant creation, be dissatisfied with everything, and want to become God and change things more to your liking. Those are from the get-go the only two options. However, i don't think bad crops are such a big danger - agriculture on large scale is a scientific invention to begin with, and it's quite possible man wouldn't live a full year in the coldest climates if he naturally couldn't adapt to them. At any rate, i find this whole argument rather silly.

But the next one is even sillier. That the natural life is not freedom, ha-ha, now i don't know whether to laugh or cry. So being manipulated by corporations to buy and need products they invent so as to drive mankind further from its purpose and to enslave them is freedom instead? i don't know what you mean by freedom, but in my estimation it includes being free from designs and devices of self-serving men, and being able to lead my own life as nature, or God, intended. It may look like freedom to you to not be tied to the requirements of nature (even if that means depdency on inventions of other men!), but you could just as well say you're not free because you have a sex drive and you just can't wait for the benevolent capitalists to come up with something to free you from it.

But if possible, even stranger is your claim that the elite wants to stop progress. No, we have simply come to the end of an era and they are ready to move to the next stage. Technology is at the point where they don't need so many people, and that is why they want to cull the population. You see, we are just cattle. We have been bred when they need us, and culled when there are too many. They will go on destroying anything natural, just without you this time. Next stage is man remade into a worker-bee without those enslaving natural desires and needs and connexion to something higher that you find so unwanted. If they wanted to revert back to Stone Age and destroy all the life-hating things they've created i'd join them, but alas, that's not the case so i don't have that luxurious option as i love life and nature and freedom too much. They will change the whole planet into one mechanism working with clockwork precision and efficiency, make no mistake about that. That is what GM is about. It is only one of its side-uses really to create foods that are harmful to us, the main point is transforming everything organic into more efficiently serving versions. When they talk about nature they mean quite a different thing than the ordinary person.

As much as i find elite's method of enslaving the people in order to promote their version of "green living" despicable, i don't need to side with them so as to think that i think rape of the planet and nature are inherently evil. The two have nothing to do with each other. You don't need to choose between two artificial polarities - and this should be very important to understand. i find harvesting and harnessing "natural resources" (which in reality are LIFE, part of our very selves - poetically, thus, when you harvest and harness nature, and animals, you are truly harnessing YOURSELF - now that's a THOUGHT, instead of a calculation, which is not thought) for capitalistic pursuits to be just as despicable as what the elite is doing now. Funny thing is, BOTH ARE THEIR DOING. They gave us capitalism, they gave us science, and now you are simply crying because they are taking from you away the candies they gave! Now, is that freedom in your mind?

Anyway, enough of this. i haven't replied to half of this article, and i would, but i'm afraid it's pointless if what i've said up to this point hasn't made anyone think twice - and if it has then further elucidation would be in vain.

i can add, though, that this whole concept of 'free market capitalism' is just the controlled opposition which is used to create the synthesis. They always rally people to two different sides, or possibly more, and then create a "compromise", the Hegelian synthesis, which will be what they wanted to begin with. You've been warned.

One larger issue i should really write here about, but i'll just mention is, that it's also necessarily, not accidentally, that capitalism and its creations get in the way of real fulfilmment in life. i'll leave it to the independent thinkers out there to figure out how that is so.

But then, i'm just an independent thinker, a single guy, not associated with any massivelly funded NGO, like the Mises Institute, so i don't have the weight of credibility to make anyone think - and on top of that, i'm a poor writer, my writings don't have the educated slickness that professionals have to inspire confidence - instead my writings are undesigned and ex tempore, the best i can do at the moment because i happen to think that instead of manufactured effect, sincerity and spontaneity that comes from the heart are more important.

If anyone thinks i said something that maybe touched a cord within themselves, please take a look at my earlier comments under many articles because in many of them i have gone deeper into some of the specifics on this topic.

But i'll remind you what they've said themselves: they will provide people with their heroes. And those heroes will then lead those who believe in them down the garden path.

To get out of enslavement, we need to start thinking from square absolute zero - to forget every concept we've ever thought of.

"Many people claim to search for the truth, but they only look for confirmation for that which they already believe."

"You can not save something that was never yours to begin with." - Alan Watt

Thank you for reading. All the best, J.

PS: And people who dismiss what i say as nonsense or simply don't agree with me. i'd challenge you to come up with real arguments against the things i say, instead of just reacting. And if you are not able to find such arguments, i'd challenge you to challenge your preconceptions that dictate your reaxions against what i say.
Regan Straley

Posted: May 21 2010, 7:09 AM

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67234 I'm in general agreement here, but I think the clearer imperative is for people to understand that national and multinational corporations are at the root of our country's myriad problems. Big Government is a creation and a necessary enforcement tool of the ubiquitous, monopolistic, and anti-capitalist corporation. It is the large corporation that must be dissolved before government can be restored to its rightful Constitutional purpose in our society. It's true that many people call for the end of corporatization as part of a larger agenda to eliminate free enterprise and private property entirely. But I think it must be understood that many corporate critics like myself call for the dissolution of the major corporate monopolies, not to destroy capitalism, but to save it. Only by crushing the anti-capitalist corporate juggernaut can we salvage true entrepreneurship and competition in American business.
Peter

Posted: May 21 2010, 9:57 AM

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95211 " Free market capitalism is the greatest thing to ever happen in the history of the world "
Absolutely, especially if you ignore the fact that it has never happened..
-Anywhere !
scientia

Posted: May 21 2010, 10:11 AM

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64122 @freedom_man: I can see that barbarism appears to be the direction your heading, if not already there. While I can sympathize with you that people having their own farms and trading bread with the local blacksmith is a nice idea it just doesn't work. There's a reason that 3rd world countries that still practice this method of commerce are starving. It simply cannot sustain growth, period. Also, for being on a Austrian-style econ site you should really read into what you're up against. "The big bad corporations" are not the problem, they are simply offshoots of a larger problem, namely: fractional-reserve banking which trickles into "crony" controlled government which props up corp's too afraid to face a truly free market which then get their "friends" to over-regulate the market and make it impossible for new entrants.

But I digress, cellphone radiation and mind-control with "sciences" sound like a much more logical reason while our market is in the mess we are in.
Anonymous

Posted: May 21 2010, 11:36 AM

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69207 FOR ANY CHANGE TO HAPPEN WE HUMANS NEED TO RETURN THE TEN SQUARE MILES KNOWN AS THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA TO VIRGINIA.AND SEND THE BRITISH BANKERS PACKING. THAN THERE CAN BE CHANGE, BUT NEVER UNTILL THE BRITISH ARE KICKED OUT OF OUR NATION FOREVER AND NEVER ALLOWED TO BE AN INFLUENCE AGAIN!!!
Anonymous

Posted: May 21 2010, 2:12 PM

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72158 Good article, Chris. Two things:

1. Anon 69207: how do we go about accomplishing getting DC back?

2. Everyone should checkout the website "Path to Freedom Urban Homesteading." This family (father and three grown children)produces 6,000 lbs of food/year on 1/5 of an acre!!! Granted, it's labor intensive but there is a direct connection between what these people are doing and this article.
Anonymous

Posted: May 21 2010, 7:46 PM

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99142 5/21/10

Thanks for the insight ......

However there are a few flaws...one is that the author is discounting the intimate relationship of big business with government...who controls who ultimately? well the government has its powerful military...andd blackwater(Ze) is the reply. Let us please be honest with each other here...government is compromised to do the bidding of big business because big business has saturated the government with bribe money in the form of lobby contributions and deals...deals for what you say?...deals like the particular industry scrutinized suddenly gets to write the very legislation that will soon be regulating them....wow...really very simple.....a REAL fascist, Mussolini called fascism what it truely is, corporatism. You say well the age of illegal monopolies is over! Sorry...wrong again...monopolistic behavior is nothing new for capitalism...it must have more and damn the sustainability of those that put it here! Lets be clear about what Freedom, Speech, and corporate personhood are. Capitalism is not freedom nor is freedom capitalism. The reason for this is that many that make up part of the total labor force are not capitalists....capitalism does NOTHING for a majority of the labor force...it is one sided and its rhetoric hollow at best. But laborers understand freedom however humble to be the gift of democracy...or a representative enumerated voice to counter rules not in their interest. Speech is not money....but corporations think it is....so do our slimy congresscritters...who was it that put this silly thought in their heads? Phil Gramm maybe? Free Market true believers? The Supreme court?...i guess if it isnt illegal then its all good...just good business...wink wink! More than anything it is time for americans not join the tea party....but communicate with your fellow americans again and change it...it has been done before.
Anonymous

Posted: May 22 2010, 1:14 AM

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72196 freedom man...I suggest if you don't want to be a hypocrite, you should get off your evil man made computer.
Anonymous

Posted: May 22 2010, 5:13 AM

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169233 If my article on Georgist rebuttals to the Austrian school prompted you to write this argument, please realise that I am VERY much a capitalist, I DESPISE Marxism (possibly more than even many Austrians can imagine, and I'll tell more in a future post). My sympathies lie with Geolibertarianism, and I support an EXTREMELY limited governent, with no income taxes, but instead, Georgist policies, and a public banking system as proposed by Bill Still ("The Money Masters") and Ellen Brown ("The Web of Debt"). It is important to realize that George was not

I think what you fail to realize is that whether we have Keynesianism (the curent paradigm), Marxism, or Austrianism, we still have a New World Order of hell. We both know how the aforementioned two systems do this, but please hear my basic arguments against austrianism (which don't get into the more intricate problems with the gold standard and other issues, some of which are expressed on the site I previously linked you to and here: http://www.monetary.org/mengerrefutation.html)

Think about it. The Rothschilds own controlling shares in the Gold Market, just as they do in Central banks. So switching to the Austrian paradigm makes them feudal lords in a different sense.

This article wil make things much more clear for you: http://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/drinking-the-mises-kool-aid/

I encourage you to also view the foolowing list of suggestion for how to get rid of the NWO. See if it makes sense: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=162212.0

Really think through Rothbard's comentary on Marx and see if it makes sense. The following might provide some ideas: http://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/false-leftright-paradigm-marx-mises-and-keynes/

“Many readers may be surprised to learn the extent to which the Graduate Institute and then Mises himself in the years immediately after he came to United States were kept afloat financially through generous grants from the Rockefeller Foundation. In fact, for the first years of Mises’s life in the United States, before his appointment as a visiting professor in the Graduate School of Business Administration at New York University (NYU) in 1945, he was almost totally dependent on annual research grants from the Rockefeller Foundation.”

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=692
Anonymous

Posted: May 22 2010, 5:16 AM

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169233 this is the correct link for the refutation of Menger: http://www.monetary.org/refute.htm
Anonymous

Posted: May 22 2010, 6:00 AM

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169233 and finally, see this, on monetary reform: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=98465.msg581265#msg581265
freedom_man

Posted: May 24 2010, 2:44 AM

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scientia: i'm not sure lack of "civilization" means barbarism (considering the implications of the word). "Civilization" is not the source of "development", spiritual content is inherent in EVERY man and woman, possibly in every living creature, rather: "civilization" has killed it. Anyway, i stand with men i acknowledge to be (still at this point) wiser and better than myself - starting from Jesus Christ. (And for those wondering, i am not a Christian of any sort, i am as vehemently against any religion or dogma as i am against capitalism - as i am against worship or adoration of even great men.)

Anon72916: Why don't you try thinking for the first time in your life? For example, try thinking why i wouldn't even if i think the way i do. That would require a genuine thought out of you.

i'm still waiting for the "intellectual heavyweights" to put me in my place. C'mon, i'm a university dropout, surely someone can (or maybe they can't because their heads have been SQUARED by the education i saw to be harmful on my first year involved in it).
Chris

Posted: May 24 2010, 3:23 AM

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Tell me, who in your Rousseauian utopia is going to enforce us going back to nature?

Who is going to be keeping people from using money?

Who is going to take away my computer and internet and force me to go back and work the fields?

Who is going to take the workers out of their factories and force them to stop making all the products the world consumes?

What if I don't want to live in your utopia and would instead like the freedom to engage in commerce and benefit from the mutual exchange of goods and labor? What if I don't want to work 4 hours a day tilling the fields and I would rather have a job and get 10 times the produce for 1 tenth the amount of work?

In our society you can go and live your fantasy out in some communist commune, yet we will have no freedom in yours.
Anonymous

Posted: May 24 2010, 5:31 AM

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169233 unfortunately, those freedoms are quickly diminishing.

freedom_man

Posted: May 24 2010, 12:30 PM

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Chris: Communism and capitalism are in no way opposed to each other, they never were.

And what i'm promoting is no utopia because it doesn't imply anything ARTIFICIAL.

And Rousseau was also an establishment figure.

Chris, really, it is very sad that you have given up your sense of self to all the riches the Devil promised you. You see, the Devil promised (and this is the meaning behind the story) the riches of the world for those who follow him, that is those who want to become Gods themselves (except of course, that the elite know that you and people like you have nothing to do with it, you are simply useful idiots who have bought into the TRINKLETS you get for helping THEM, or the Devil, with their plan) and who are not happy with the original creation - the deviants, and most people will go with the Devil. It really is sad you don't see it.

But then, even Rhodes scholars aren't made to go and lie to the world, the Rhodes scholars are "educated" so that they actually believe in what they're doing. Only people who really understand what's going on are independent thinkers and those at the very top (neither sect has taken reality as it was given to them).

And it doesn't matter if in "your" society i can go and live out my freedom, because you will be raping the world, and also your system will be enslaving the people who come into it, just like it has enslaved you and your parents and countless of generations before you - you think i'm one who just wants a comfortable life and live like a hermit? No, no one with a conscience can do that.

Only thing you seem to understand from what i say that "why he says capitalism/progress is bad! i like capitalism and what it gives me!" without any consideration to the actual arguments - doesn't the passive aggression of your reply suggest anything to you? It suggests many things to me. You also don't understand "your" view is [i]a posteriori[/i], totally prejudiced/indoctrinated.

In a sense, or rather in actuality, materialistic people never grow up, they never seem to learn that not everything you want is good for you. You just want, like a child. And why not, you must subdue the spiritual side of yourself in order to support the unnatural progress.

It's absolutely no use to speaking to indoctrinated people so, have fun with what they've given you, it's the only fun you ever get out of life - you will never find yourself, but then, why should you?, you have all the goodies to play with and distract yourself with from the voice within, Little Man.

Anon169233: i didn't go through your post earlier (words like 'Georgist policies' scared me away from it at first.) But good stuff in the end, thanks.
Chris

Posted: May 24 2010, 9:05 PM

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"Communism and capitalism are in no way opposed to each other, they never were."

That's a nice little slogan, but is it true?

Capitalism is nothing more than the free market exchange of goods and the division of labor in order to create more wealth for everyone, it's completely natural and mutually beneficial for all parties involved. It's one of the greatest expressions of work, knowledge, and human ingenuity, and it's created incredible abundance for the world and lifted billions of people out of abject poverty and total misery.

Communism is the government running the whole society.

The two are not the same, that is direct opposition, just because right now we've become communist doesn't mean the two are 'in no way opposed.' I've heard all the talks about how it's all to create a synthesis etc., that doesn't change the greatness of real free market capitalism, like one poster said, we've never had it (and yet look at how far we've come even with all the hurdles the government puts in the way). You've taken this idea that everything is all one giant scam and now you're completely blind to the goodness that exists, you're unappreciative of the work involved not by some central planner but by capitalists, many of whom risked their entire life savings in order to sell you something you want and need, 9 out of 10 of them failed and had to return to the work force, the one out of 10 who succeeded you took the fruits of their labor and yet now you hate them for it because they're rich. You don't realize they're only rich because they provided people with a product they wanted, a product which people are more than happy to voluntarily pay for because it enriches their life more than their money does. That's what you missed, you never put yourself in their shoes and you've never seen things from their perspective. You call them an 'exploiter' and question their sanity.

What you're promoting is entirely artificial, it's some fake marketing idea in your mind of a utopian society where nothing is artificial. The real world is filled with artificial things, and guess what, that is entirely natural!

ar·ti·fi·cial
   /ˌɑrtəˈfɪʃəl/ Show Spelled[ahr-tuh-fish-uhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. made by human skill; produced by humans (opposed to natural): artificial flowers.

Ohh those evil humans making thinks with their skills, why won't they just live in abject poverty and stop wanting to improve their lot?

This Rousseauian ideal you share is the most artificial of all. It's a marketing creation to get you to lust for some world without capitalism, the evil capitalism which gives everyone what they want with almost no work. The evil capitalism which makes people decadent because there is so much abundance the new sin becomes 'over consumption' and 'materialism.' No doubt you're not aware the socialist attack on capitalism in the past was that it wasn't providing enough goods, once it became so obvious it was succeeding in giving people so much they switched into attacking it because it made us all 'materialistic' and 'deviants.'

Funny isn't it!?!?

Did you know calling people deviants is a eugenics term? I know you said you're fine with less people 'raping the world' but still you might want to think about that.

Part of freedom is allowing other people to live the way they want, freedom is not creating some utopian society for the world, it's being left alone to live your life as you see fit. The 'return to nature' idea is socialist utopianism, I've entertained it in the past, I realize now it's not freedom and it just may be the biggest hoax of all.
anMD

Posted: May 24 2010, 9:21 PM

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98247 I tend to agree with freedom_man. There is nothing wrong with free and fair commerce; indeed, the "natural view" includes this concept (and I don't think it is literally necessary to "go into the woods" so as to practice fair exchanges...). However, in today's western capitalist society, even this concept does not exist (even if it seems that it does) because behind every "fair exchange" lies the specter of greed, abuse, and exploitation.

When you freely buy consumer goods in the US, an unseen series of injustices and unethical behaviors are built into the seemingly cheap price. Whether you buy a pair of shoes made in China, or a computer made in Malaysia, or even import tomatoes from California, the unseen hand of corruption and abuse is inherently hidden to the final purchaser.

What one must wonder is whether capitalism (in the modern sense) is anything remotely related to what it is supposed to be in theory, namely the free, uncoerced exchange of goods and services (that is, at all levels). Americans claiming capitalism as a panacea cannot fathom the evils underlying this actual practice in our society.
Daisy

Posted: May 25 2010, 5:09 AM

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94196 freedom_man, I think I see what you're saying. But being free of capitalism/material possessions does not guarantee spirituality, just as having material abundance does not preclude spirituality. It's a state of mind. You can enjoy material things whilst being aware that they are transient and ultimately illusory. Likewise, you can own nothing yet still be a greedy person in your heart. Grudgingly giving up all material possessions because you feel you should, out of some moral aspiration to asceticism, could be likened to fasting for spiritual growth but fantasizing about food the entire time.

I think what I'm saying is that if you are spiritual then no amount of material wealth will satisfy you anyway. Look at the Western world - while it has rampant consumerism, and many people have more than they need, a lot of them are still hungering for something more.

And I don't think any 'system', be it free market capitalism or otherwise, will truly work and be fair for everyone UNLESS it is matched by a leap in people's spiritual growth. Until people learn to truly care about each other and feel others' pain as if it were their own, then any system or ideology is open to exploitation, corruption and abuse.
freedom_man

Posted: May 25 2010, 7:48 AM

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Hi, Daisy.

When you speak of "material possessions", and "material things", i take them to mean artificial produce of science, not products of nature? i know the idea of "physical realm" being transitory and illusionary is a popular one, it's been promoted with big money, through New Age religion and people like David Icke, who say they're not NA but who in effect leads people to exactly the same path.

But not wanting to start discussing the various theories that are put out by the establishment on the construction of reality (Gorbachev admitted in his book that "i am an atheist myself but we are creating a religion based on a kind of Earth worship"), but would instead begin from what i can assess from myself as apart from what the priesthoods of New Age tell us. To my way of thinking it simply makes sense that whatever the nature of physical reality, it wouldn't exist if it didn't have meaning. It itself may be transitory and illusionary, but it's effect on man's psyche is not. Thus i would not at all consider physical reality a mere trifle (and Icke's analogy about "combing the mirror" is entirely erronuous on logical level.)

i don't at all promote denial of physical things, but the denial of artificial produce (physical as well as mental! - an ideology, to take a very obvious example, like Satanism, is just as destructive as a cellphone - it appeals to the lowest factors in our consciousness, denying the higher one's altogether). The trinklets we get from capitalism/science are the trinklets we get in exchange for the totality of our experience in our natural life. i can not come up with a single scientific invention which i couldn't trace to numerous ill-effects in regards to our connexion with natural life. In my earlier post i used cellphones as an example.

My main point with this is that there's nothing wrong with enjoying material things, as long as they are not artificial. Because i very much doubt there is nothing offered to us by nature enjoying of which would be detrimental to the purpose of our life and our numinousity.

But when you move into the realm of artificial things, there immediately comes the price to pay for them. And, if you would argue that one can use, i'll use my favourite cellphone as an example again, a cellphone without being entrapped by it - first of all, there is much to the saying "if you give the Devil your little finger...". But secondly, and less metaphorically, if you are not lured by the "positive" (in reality wholly destructive in regards to numinosity and purpose) effects of using a cellphone, why would you need it to begin with? i believe that there is necessarily a certain amount of self-deceit in such an attitude.

Spirituality implies much more than good will and not harming anyone (and yes, are you not harming anything when you know that to produce the artificial things an untold amount of destruction upon the planet? - which well might be inherently a part of us, considering the mere facts about nature of physical reality and our observations being mere energetical emanations). It implies a purpose and meaning to life which have nothing to do with anything manmade - and thus at best they serve as a distraction.

And you're quite right, it will make no one any good by force denying themselves of the "Devil's rewards." Spiritual awakening happens to people who seek for it, who seek for the truth - it doesn't happen by force, and truth is not found by force or by a set path. The path to within oneself is always by necessity a personal one. But its effects have a remarkable similarity in all people who have taken it.

But you can also think about it this way: nature gives us certain things we can enjoy ourselves with - sex, fruits, animals, the sky, the sea, the sun, forests, meadows, flowers, tea, sunsets, sunrises, starry nights, clouded nights, the sound of wind, the feel of wind, rain...all the things we can enjoy with our senses - which are in total accordance with the journey of our spirit. Now give this a chance. (And i've said it before and i repeat it, i don't believe in Christ, or the Devil, but the religions we have been given all have the basic truths encoded within them, that's how they can be sold to people and then distorted - but the truths in them are in allegorical form - of course in reality there is no Devil, the elite, the deviant priesthoods, are the Devil - that's why all at the top are Satanists). So: then comes the Devil, who offers us things that are designed to lure us away from the natural pleasures we were given to enjoy. In this context, do you think it's possible to enjoy the offerings of the Devil and not be distracted from your natural spiritual journey? You don't need to believe in the Devil to see my meaning with this - the point is the attraxion of purpose-created artificial things which then displace the natural ones - at the same time, displacing our purpose of living.

i guess a very succinct way of putting it is that articial things designed for the purpose hyper-excite our senses, whereas the things nature offers simply pleases them. It simply takes a certain amount of reflexion, honesty and maturity to understand things like this - all the things which are discouraged by our culture, most of all by the simple lack of time people have for such things as their lives are guided at lightning speed from cradle to grave.

Inner truths are no less real because they lack the standard of objective proof, which we are indoctrinated to believe over the evidence of our own minds.

Nietzsche, who was an establishment philosopher promoting certain ideas that would lead to the chaos we are now living trough, giving credence to doctrines such as materialism and satanism, said one very true thing (well, i'm sure many more, but one that has stuck with me and is relevant to this discussion.) He said that the most important moments of our lives are not the loudest ones, but the quietest ones.

Anyway, thanks to you for your reply. i'm glad i got the chance also to say some things clearer than i did before.
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